Discussion thread for The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories - Lecture #4
study group discussion
Discussion as part of our Jordan B Peterson Study Group.
Discussion thread for The Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories - Lecture #4
Discussion as part of our Jordan B Peterson Study Group.
19, if nature selects you to be adapted to be able to deal with chaos and order, thats a good implication that the world is made out of chaos and order. (We also are capable of experiencing spiritual event, not even always through psychedelics.)
29, Tzadik, the messianic figure that returns willingly to state he lost from childhood, while still being conscious. (Read through this) (rosebud)
32, Adler: life lie, Rogers: dialogue, truth shall set you free.
37, the reason Elohim is pluralistic is because he’s a multitude of ‘gods’ all as one. (Original, and simplistic, conception was it was father and son, but that doesn’t reason why Jews have Elohim)
39, we’ll try to get through all five books during these 12 lectures. (Ha ha ha)
41, a sacrifice is a bargain with the future. (He also said, act in the way that makes your future self proud, or something. My new reliance upon my past self, neuhmanns realization that animal sacrifices actually work) u9
53, tend the garden (means to take care of the earth, seems silly that I hadn’t known this, maybe I had just don’t think about it enough)
54, snake with human head (is our spine, our base structure)
55, look like magic mushrooms (The stoned ape theory, back to earlier point on nature selecting)
56, Sabbath, you hav to take a rest so as not to burn out. (back to earlier point on sacrifice) (The office, Michael’s justification for movie Monday is they work faster… in order to get all their work done.) (Eureka moment)
1:01, not mere metaphors, why else bother with abstraction? Eating raises spirits, neuhmann.
1:05, information foragers, like squirrels, meta food, information where the food is, more valuable. Information is the highest value (doesn’t contradict his idea of truth, because it’s more valuable, so truth is information with the highest value, not the scientific method)
1:07, meta-trees (trees in the bible are most often analogous to man, like trees walking etc, so if this analogy is using the same symbol there might be a correlation, our ability to feed off of the information from each other, this is my body and my blood, to gain knowledge. that then forces us to survive off of our own amount of limited knowledge, as well as giving birth to bowling ball heads) (the birds have no worry for the future, goes back to the childlike bliss we long to return to of giving up oneself to the higher authority)
1:08, the four rivers, the holy city, the self. Strange intermingling (intersection) of geography. (The 4 corners, the overlapping intersections, the cross) (also, as for these geographical locations, there is a literal meaning inside of every Hebrew name, and these could be used for higher understanding of the analogy) (eden could/should be my basis for the script) (look up names)
1:10, why tell them not to eat of it? (if God is the future, he said not to eat of the tree, then later, Adam and eve both realized their mistake and regretted it, becoming like God, the fruit is knowledge of future potential of actions) (good sci fi script) (God is our conscience that knows the future)
1:14, John wheeler, the photon would not leave it’s source unless it has an endpoint.
1:39, women buy these magazines and attracted to them and enjoy them. (The feminists are rejecting the internal patriarchy that women are willing to go along with, thus taking away the individuals free will, free expression of their own femininity, trying to turn them into something else… A man. A weak man. A comrade. A tyrannical coward.)
1:52, women may have evolved for the mother-child relationship (this is a good jumping off point for my theory on God, mankind may have evolved in order to best benefit the entire group, the culture, we have developed the ability to speak and share thoughts between us into a way that is monumental, evolutionarily shifting, something new in the entire known universe of time and space.)
1:55, we’re very dependant (as with the model T, we’re more efficient the more segmented we are. We’re even more efficient when we share a common goal in our individuality, that’s the future, more capability, making things easier, that’s God.)
1:57, metaphysical blindness (scales from eyes, the past suddenly changing as peterson says, scales from the eyes, the cosmic awareness from psychedelics that leads to higher creativity)
1:58, we became aware that we are vulnerable. (That’s that awareness of the potential future) (this is what separates us from animals, they exist in their own naivety, unaware of what is either good or bad, they just ‘is.’ Organism is projecting our own conception of morality onto the lives of those with no need or use for good or evil. We can avoid eating them for our own comfort and attempting to become less monstrous, but do not pretend you’re doing it for the animal’s benefit, that is virtue signaling to an animal that is unable to recognize your generosity. In the animal kingdom the predators keep the prey from overpopulating and ruining the environment for the prey. To exist is better than to not. Even in extreme suffering, but I’m not sure that animals are aware of the concept of suffering, only living, and not living, and to not live is bad, but in reality to live forever is bad too, for the environment were currently on would not allow it. Maybe once we have more planets to experiment with. Still, let’s not ruin the one we’re on currently.) (Also, we don’t eat chimps, rats, or cats or dogs, because they express aspects of our own personality that we enjoy/learn from, the other animals have evolved in order to serve the higher power (us, in their case) much like a banana has been evolved to be more useful for us, cows have been adapted to exist for a purpose, to be tasty and eaten, like aphids, to essentially be used and useful once they die, and they are going to always die, so why not give them a retroactive reason for why they existed in the first place. (Adapt this into a Socratic argument) )
2:05, snakes ARE lizards that lost their legs, just so you know. (There are aspects of literal truth inside this text, truth not able to be known from an individual at that time, but a collection of knowledge and understanding from before we even had speech, this is important. There’s truths within us not from ourselves but from all of time, able to recognize patterns without our own recognition while we sleep, and predict the future from our past ancestors. And then we can utilize this past knowledge to change the potential future from occurring the way we were told it would occur (jonah) this is the third time I’ve listened to this, these are all new truths I hadn’t gotten before) (same with larger developed brains bringing pain in childbirth
2:09, I’ll go over this all next week. (That’s the sprouting of plants, the rebirthing figure that grows, is cut down and comes again. That’s evolution, that’s farming, that’s us. That image also looks like the Djed, the symbol of osiris, the same figure as Christ, that’s the base of the spine that is planted and becomes the headpiece.)
2:12, unit 731 did this to investigate frostbite. (They had a justification for their inhuman acts, that justification was the seeking out of knowledge as foremost, no sympathy for their fellow man and our existence. That’s how a Brave New World happens, dissolution of the fact that man as a divine creature, that is aware of suffering, that dissolution gives justification to people like Eric Harris or Joseph Stalin or Adolph Hitler.)
2:14, that’s the enemy. (Ha’satan, the Hebrew word for the devil just means adversary) (Satan is within all of us, even Peter, Jesus’s disciple)
(My favorite of all his lectures)
2:23, cosmic serpent, breaking open the head. (I need to read these books. My own education has failed me. I am seeking to recompense this by quitting my day job, moving out of my father’s house, living in poverty off of money I can make by minimally working as an Uber driver. During this time I will be devoting my life to reading (more potential via the balto app), writing, and seeking a foothold at the base of the ladder for the career I feel is most important for my own self.)
2:24, there’s no way we could have known what DNA looked like before we did. There’s more to spirituality than materialism, we know things in our future somehow, not just through psychological guiding towards that future, but unknown truths that are shown to us from something more than our own current system, there’s another book, I haven’t read yet, but am eager to by the title: They Knew the Unknown, which may go into the muse of Socrates and Tesla, etc.)
2:27, recognizing their own shadow. (Rogan mentions this when he sparks with women in Jiu Jitsu, he knows what he could do that would instantly pin them, or worse, damage them to be paralysed, that understanding of evil he could inflict also includes the existence of hood, to know those evils we can do and to avoid them, but if we do not know what is evil we could accidently murder someone, then not see our mistake and do this again and again, moral law is evolutionary in a way, at least in regards to the avoidance of inflicting suffering. But suffering is also beneficial for us because it causes us to become better than who we are, hmm, but that suffering upon us we attribute to Satan, the devil, pure evil, and will view the person inflicting suffering upon us as that person. That’s why God is the great and terrible father, he is so much more powerful than us that we have to accept him in all aspects, even allowing Job to be tortured.)
2:29, God gave us Satan to make us substantial. (What a fantastic vision to receive) (The dragon protects us from the treasure)
For the books he talks about I have added goodreads links but please note that I don’t endorse goodreads even though I have an accout there and update my reading progress regularly and I’m a fool to trust them with my private book notes (you don’t have to either).
0:48 - Finished my latest book.
1:20 - Been thinking for a long time still can’t fathom how can there be so much information in these stories.
1:40 - Layer after layer more information comes out.
2:08 - These stories contain information that we generated interpersonally over a very long period of time and modified over time by the process of transmitting/remembering - transmitting/remembering over vast stretches of time.
2:33 - Will take that apart today.
2:52 - Cane and Abel story - personal/familial/political/warfare/economics. Lot for a one paragraph story to cover.
3:11 - Postmodern idea - you never know what you are reading here. How do you know your interpretation of the world is sufficient (not correct) ?
3:28 - It is correct if you act it out and other people don’t object too much and you don’t die and nature doesn’t take a bite out of you any more often than necessary (functionally successfully).
4:03 - Chances that you can come up with an interpretation by chance that will work at multiple levels is decreasing (multimethod/multitrait - more ways you can measure it the more certain you can be that you are not deluding yourself with you a priori hypothesis.
4:55 - Try not to teach people something that is not personally relevant. When you are being taught something you should know what the fact is good for. Good for you, good for your family and maybe good for the society.
4:58 - No utility in teaching facts that are not meaningful.
5:11 - Facts should serve as tools for us. We are tool using characters.
5:40 - Stories are so foundational that everybody share them (same for many fairy tales at** least recently**).
6:05 - You have to at least treat them as remarkable curiosities. Why them ? Why they stuck around for so long ?
6:21 - Freud’s explanation: Familial father was expanded up in cosmic dimension so that mankind existing in the same relationship with cosmic father say that an infant or small child existed in relationship his/her own father.
7:57 - People who act out the role of religious followers act out the role of dependent children. Becker missed the point in same way that Freud missed Jung’s point.
8:18 - Creating God is nothing but we trying to create quasi infantile state of dependency and to be able to rely upon all knowing father. Recover the comfort we had when we were younger and had all knowing father (or those of us who were lucky to have someone vaguely like that).
8:33 - Charles Taylor wrote an interesting book called the “Origins of the Modern Self” - if you are going to invent this infantile fantasy then why would you bother conceptualizing hell ?
9:10 - Hell - Consequence of a serious error was eternal torment. Doesn’t sound very comfortable. James Joyce had terrible nightmare as a child because of Hellfire sermons from Jesuits. (Probably in this book: A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce).
10:00 - Jesuits telling him hell was prison with walls seven miles thick and consumed with darkness and fire. People who were trapped there continually burnt by this dark fire that gave new light that also simultaneously rejuvenate their flesh. So that it could be burn off eternally.
10:11 - Elaine Pagels wrote a book on the devil that talks about how christians invented hell as a place for their enemies.
10:55 - Charles Taylor’s idea that modern existential crisis is akin to medieval hell.
15:00 - Alexander Luria - function of the PFC. Women’s brains more diffused.
15:39 - Both the hemispheres have quasi independent consciousness.
16:38 - Goldberg - Brain Right/Left - routinization - non-routinization, novelty/familiarity - chaos/order.
17:13 - Negative thinking is something you feel when you encounter something you don’t understand. (Related to images).
17:26 - Left takes all that inputs and develops something that is more algorithmic and fully understood.
17:38 - Left tries to enforce order (Ramachandran - neurologist in California).
18:20 - Dreams - information moves from right to left in small chunks.
19:16 - Right brain - exploration - action - stories/poetry.
19:25 - What it is that we are biologically adapted to is reality (Darwin). Implying world is made out of chaos and order.
19:47 - If nature is what selects and nature has evolved this brain with two hemispheres (chaos and order) then you ca make a pretty strong case that nature is chaos and order.
20:30 - Bible is akin to library. Written by many authors over time.
21:00 - 22:50 This is a problem of self-consciousness - the fact that we are going to die and we know it.
23:10 - Insignificant humans on the edge of the galaxy. Nothing that happens to us matters.
23:40 - It is untrue because it is not a road you can walk down this road - you didn’t live well. You walk too far - lots of similarities b/w this and thinking of suicidal people.
24:06 - If you are interested in this you should read Leo Tolstoy’s A Confession.
25:00 - Biblical stories represent emergence of consciousness in humans as a cataclysmic event at cosmic level.
25:11 - What does consciousness has to do with cosmos ? Maybe nothing or maybe everything. I’m gonna go with everything.
25:18 - That’s what it looks to me. You are welcome to disagree.
25:57 - Rest of the bible is about what to do about that.
26:10 - 26:22 The idea that you protect yourself from tragic consequence of self-consciousness is by reorganizing into a state.
26:30 - State begins to manifest it’s pathologies. State becomes unstable and collapses and so on.
26:49 - Now people start wonder whether state itself is redemptive is not correct idea.
26:59 - Now comes the christian revolution. Not the state but the individual psyche that is way to salvation.
27:37 - Most fundamentally the proper functioning of the state depends upon the proper functioning of the individual and not vice-versa.
27:41 - Proper mode of being that is redemptive is truth. Truth is the antidote to suffering that emerges with the fall of men.
28:04 - Word in the form of the truth that generates order out of chaos.
28:16 - The being God speaks is good.
28:55 - Initially being was properly balanced and it took the whole bible to re-discover that. Classic theme.
29:30 - Wise person finds what he logs in the childhood and regains it. But doesn’t become a child - you return voluntarily their well awake.
30:00 - I have never found an idea that matches that not just in profundity but believability.
30:09 - What cures in therapy is the truth.
30:21 - If you should do something by your own set of rules and you don’t do it then you are acting a lie.
30:31 - 30:40 Once you confront something that you know you shouldn’t be avoiding what happens is that you start acting out your deepest truths. That improves people’s lives.
31:23 - 31:52 Just by asking for help you have admitted that problems exist. Then if you tell me about them I know what they are. Then maybe we lay out some solutions and see if they work. But if you don’t admit they are there and you won’t tell me where they are. How is that going to work ?
**31:52 - **It may be comfortable moment to moment while we stay encapsulated in our delusion.
32:04 - Freud thought that repression was at the root of psychological suffering. Difference b/w repression and deception is a matter of degree.
32:14- 32:45 Alfred Adler Underappreciated - people are in trouble because they act out a life lie. For shadowed a lot of developments in cybernetics theory. Jung believed that you could bypass psychotherapy entirely by engaging in proper moral effort in your own life.
32:45 - Carl Rogers thought that it was honest communication mediated through dialog that had redemptive potential.
33:04 - All these are secular version of “Truth will set you free”.
33:15 - You dispense with this story at your own peril. People who have been really hurt have been hurt by deceit.
33:28 - You get walloped by life - there is not doubt about that.
33:45 - 34:09 People can handle a lot but not deception (esp. By people they love and trust). It makes them ill - psychophysically. It also makes them bitter and resentful and then they act it out in this world and that’s terrible.
35:18 - Animals have glimmering of consciousness. To equate it with humans have anti-humanistic underlying motivations.
35:55 - Discovery of future by humans - time and end of your being.
36:41 - Gods are basically fundamental forces, polytheistic turn into into monotheistic. Even polytheistic have a hierarchy.
38:19 - Why the older story comes later ? and the order of stories ?
38:40 - Because they make sense - people stay interested.
38:52 - Good stories - communicable and rememberable.
39:23 - Anthropoemic ?
39:37 - Ground of the consciousness is the most complex thing we know of.
40:07 - God is the spirit that arose from the cloud of the future.
40:14 - Delay gratification.
40:21 - What is the future ? Spirit of humanity.
40:45 - Future as one entity and compassionate judge.
41:04 - God as an abstraction for complex future so that you can systematize around it and negotiate with it.
41:22 - Faint with amazement - “Bargaining with the future” is an amazing idea.
41:37 - 42: 20 Minimize suffering by negotiating with the future. Example of farmers not eating the seeds they need to next season of crops even when they (their kids) are starving.
44:39 - 45:15 Implicit idea that humans can interact with reality in such a way that its tragic elements are mitigated. Move to a state like heaven.
45:15 - Jung writing about science - Dream was the boundary b/w thinking and instinct. Learn enough about reality to eradicate suffering.
46:53 - Christian spirituality failed to eradicate suffering as promised so now we moved on to materialism.
49:03 - Paradise comes from a word for “walled garden”.
49:51 - Also keeps out the snakes.
50:18 - Radical left asserts that predation of capitalism are consequence of injection that was delivered in Genesis by God to man to go out and dominate.
David Suzuki’s argument against that.
51:28 - 51:39 Thomas Henry Huxley study that no matter how much we fish will never run out. Incorrect calculation.
52:26 - Only recently we realized the extent of the problem.
52:40 - Before that we were just trying to not die very unsuccessfully.
53:09 - The message in genesis is to take proper decision and take care of all beings.
53:49 - Why does the snake have a human head ?
56:00 - Wisdom of taking breaks.
If you want to be most productive over longest period of time.
How much you should work ?
1:00:04 Eden - well watered place.
Certain chaos is needed.
1:00:53 - Tree of life, Tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Abstraction is more real than reality.
Reality is what your brain is adapted to.
1:02:12 - Why would something you eat would be associated with transformation of consciousness ?
1:05:31 - Food stable across all foods is information. We use the same circuits to search for info that we use for food.
Knowing where the food is important than actually having food.
Information as meta-food.
01:07:18 - Hyper-reality - more real than reality we can see.
1:09:53 - If we can’t eat it why put it there ? You knew full well people are going to eat it.
Serpent was higher good who tempted towards consciousness.
Birth of consciousness was precursor to greatest event in history - birth of event and his sacrifice.
1:11:34 Not propaganda but very sophisticated people.
1:11:55 They were very careful with traditions.
1:12:17 Lord God said that it’s not good man should be alone.
1:12:39 Why does god care what Adam calls the animals ?
Magic of speech.
Thing isn’t quite real until you name it.
What happens to things when you are not there to perceive them ?
John Wheeler Physicists **- **A photon that enters you eye won’t be emitted 20 million years if you eye was not there to perceive it.
<< Once it is named it’s kind of marked by or visited by the consciousness. >>
1:15:49 - Consciousness and reality.
1:16:18 - Sometimes people won’t name things just so that they don’t become real.
You can act as if it’s not there and get away with it for some time.
Once you name it - you have to deal with it.
1:17:22 Roger Brown studied relationship b/w perception and reality.
1:21:07 - Initial man Adam was a perfect being, he was split into two and part of what we humans have to do is re-unite the two.
1:21:29 - Swedish marriage ceremony. They had to hold a candle b/w them as they were getting married.
What hold is above you ?
1:24:22 Ediple mother - mother weakens the child by protecting the child too much.
Story of “Sleeping Beauty”.
If you child is unconsciousness - then maybe they won’t leave home.
Stamp out courage in children when they see it.
She is so naive her first love affair bloody well kills her.
Prince represent here own consciousness.
1:28:41 - What do you do when you get married ?
You take someone who is just as useless as you are and then you shackle yourself to them.
If they can run away you can’t tell the truth.
If you went to a party and found Mr. Right and he didn’t run away - he is not Mr. Right.
If someone loves you that should immediately disenchant you with them (Neitze).
1:30:28 - We can either straighten this out or we can suffer through next 5 decades.
1:30:52 - What exactly are you saying to one another when you are in a living relationship ?
For now I can’t find anything better to trick but I would like to trade you in if someone better comes along.
1:33:23 - The seeker catches that round chaos thing and wins all the games. (Quidditch).
1:35:00 - They were naked and not ashamed of it.
Why nudity in children is acceptable ?
Kalahari Bushmen run animals to death and we did that earlier.
Buckminster Fuller’s explanation.
1:40:36 - Serpent was very subtle than any other creature.
How story of serpent tangled together with the Devil ?
1:43:48 - Intellact with pride and not enough wisdom as root for evil.
1:45:53 - Adam and Eve didn’t promise they won’t eat the fruit of tree of knowledge of good and evil.
How obedient you want your children to be ?
1:46:39 - We were tree dwelling primates for a long time. We had three predators: Snakes, Birds and Cats.
1:46:53 - Message from snake - you better wake up or something you don’t know will get you.
Lynne A. Isbell’s study of vision and relation to snakes.
Brain might have grown so big to support enhanced vision. But if brain grew enough - we woke up.
Once we wake up we become aware of our future and where snakes might live.
1:51:18 Women make man self-conscious.
1:52:00 We diverged from chimpanzees 6 million years ago.
1:57:16 - Realized that they were naked.
2:00:09 - They hid from god. Why ?
Imagine you have the opportunity to live a good life. Imagine why you might not do that ?
Fear and Shame ?
Akin to your own inadequacy.
Walking with God in the garden is akin to living a good life.
What have you hidden from in your life ?
2:04:33 - When man get rejected by women ?
It’s not me it’s them.
What a bloody world this is in which they exist ?
02:08:25 - God invented work to punish man.
<< WTF ! >>
What does work mean ?
Sacrificing present for the future - because you know you are vulnerable and you are awake.
No matter how many problems you solve there are hell lot coming up.
Not matter how much you work, more needs to be done.
Be terrified of the future.
02:09:19 - William Blake painting.
02:10:35 - What does knowledge of good and evil mean ?
Mesopotamian belief that humans were made out of the blood of King XYZ that was defeated by Tiamat.
2:11:08 - What does opening your eye and realizing your vulnerability has to do with knowledge of good and evil ?
Unit 731 torture.
Now that you know what hurts you - you can figure out what hurts someone else.
2:13:46 - Now you have got potential snakes and the external people snakes and internal snacks.
<< What a fucking mess man ? >>
That’s why they associated snake with the evil/devil.
2:15:50 - Motivated by nothing but malevolence.
2:17:21 - Question related to abortion.
Should everything that’s wrong be illegal.
<< Why does he talk like a politician in the beginning - clarifying his position. >>
Man and Women.
Leonard Cohen - In a massacre, there is no decent place to stand.
Sexuality is really twisted these days.
Proper level of sexuality and human behaviour.
Girl from conservative family. Timid. Never had sex.
Some adventure but not too much.
<< What does birth control pill have to do with this ? >>
Marriage as a proper means of integrating sexuality in one’s life.
Children are first and foremost priority once they exist.
2:22:48 - Question related to DNA ?
We don’t know the limits of our perception.
2:27:00 - Question about humans waking up ?
Audience member: Integrating your evil nature makes you substantial.
If you want to make something strong you test it, if you want to make something ultimately strong you test it ultimately.
Had a vision: I went to heaven. I was put in roman amphitheater put next to devil. I had this battle and won.
Why would God put me there ?
Do you protect the people you love or you try to make them strong ?
Hate to say God put Satan there to help us ultimately - because it’s so cut and dry.
What is angel and sword thing all about ?
Perfection as something that is to be earned.
I can’t put a level below the argument I made today - I can’t find a way to undermine that argument. I can’t break it.
That’s what I do with my ideas. I try to break it.
<< Wow, how about testing and trying to break my future plans so that I can make them robest.
Lies and deception destroying people’s lives. When they start acting out the truth, things get better.