Maps of Meaning #12

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Discussion for 2017 Maps of Meaning - Lecture #12

study group discussions

Discussion as part of our Jordan B Peterson Study Group.

my notes

  • 00:00 - you can access being from what exists (the scientific process - the stripping off of the subjective from the phenomena), and from how to exist?

  • 11:00 - the way out of moral relativism, is to be able to estimate and contrast (measure) belief systems against each other

  • 27:00 - the games that are played voluntarily win out over the games that are played through tyranny << open-source? business? the SJW postmodernism rights conquest? virtual-reality/augmented-reality porn/relationships/adventures - soylent with vr headsets with solar panels) >>

  • 37:00 - to test a universal theory, evaluate it against every level of analysis you can, and if it passes every one, the more likely it is universally true - but you must also try to disprove them, by evaluating them in areas that are independent from the original frame of thinking << wouldn’t this be attempting to create a chimera though? in the way the feminist literature does >>

  • 41:00 - people don’t have goals, they have nested hierarchies of goals - they have micro goals that have macro goals - it all depends on the frame of reference - what happens when you make a mistake? you will encounter a stimuli that punishes you - the problem with an error, is you don’t know what the error signifies

  • 1:00:00 - when you collapse into chaos, your positive emotion systems shut down

  • 1:01:00 - an error has come about, that has blown their frames of reference out, and they stay blown out - a nihilistic solution, a collapse

  • 1:07:00 - don’t let your children do anything that lets you dislike them (also don’t be an idiot, your partner needs to tell you when your demands on the child is excessive) + it is up to you, to make them chose a path, that makes them someone who you want to be around (as that will help make them people that society want to be around) - the problem of a child is to raise them as a citizen of a collaborative social world - you have a responsibility to those you love, and are obligated to and to yourself, to make sure that they manifest themselves in which is most beneficial to them in the long run, you help each other how not to make each other make fools of yourselves in public

  • 1:10:00 - if you decide not to make a stand, you weaken yourself and you make your enemy stronger - the longer you leave it, the bigger the monster grows - if you interact with the monster, you unpack it, and you learn, so you can get stronger and the enemy is more understood - don’t lose an opportunity to grapple with something that objects to you, especially when the objection is rather small - rule of 3, if you do something that I find disruptive, and it occurs 3 times, then I will confront you - I’m not ignoring it and we can get to the bottom of it - you push away the objections 3 times, they get mad and they burst into tears, and you push that aside, then you can solve the problem as you’ve gotten to the depth of it - not be intimidated by anger, and not to be swamped by compassion by the tears

  • 1:20:00 -** if you continue to be a slave, you will continue to produce tyrants - your normative morality, your harmlessness and naivety masquerading as virtue, is completely insufficient to protect you in the world - tyrants will push until someone pushes back** << when you encounter psychopathic traits, they will continue to get stronger and suck more people into their abuse of trust networks, unless you confront the problematic behaviour instantly, otherwise a bed of a thousand knives will emerge and conquer/dominate the system >>

  • 1:25:00 - if you are unhappy despite what you have, you may have to let go all that you have, to open the void to finding the things that you were lacking - you should let go of anything interfering with your psychological progression, as however valuable what you have is it is still not as valuable as what you are giving up!

  • 1:32:00 - attachment is not necessarily bad, it is bad when you can’t let something go that you need to when the time comes to

  • 1:33:00 - is the less radical solution to the problem, that crucifixion and resurrection

  • 1:34:00 - you should conceptualise the highest possible good you can, and then orientate yourself around that, then act in the moment - pinocchio story parallels with god and human creation story << conflation in society of creator is perfect and created a perfect creation - any programmer knows this is a ridiculous concept - the creator is closer to perfection, but is imperfect, and does his best, and creates his best, but never perfect - the creation is transcendental, but unfamiliar with the human condition of entropy - whereas the creator is less transcendental as time passes, but familiar with battle scars of the human condition - so they work together, the creation to renew the creator’s world, and the creator to protect the creation from the evils and to blossom into something worthy and influential >>

  • 1:38:55 - slide

  • 1:43:00 - if your life isn’t how you want it to be, then you need to find the thing that you are most afraid, and confront it, in order to move past the thing holding back and bring about the change that you need - so what are you afraid of?

  • 1:46:00 - generally speaking, the route to optimal living, has already been laid out by those who has preceded us

  • 1:55:00 - the role of maturation is to be able to instil the aspects of childhood as a matured man, not to stay in childhood that is peter pan

  • 1:56:00 - if you don’t have your own sense of meaning, then you will fall into prey from tyrannical belief systems, as they will offer you the meaning that you should already have

  • 1:57:00 - sometimes you won’t have an answer that works, but only an answer that is the best bet of producing the desired result

  • 1:58:00 - sometimes you won’t know what is the best possible outcome, so you can say what you think, and then define that as the best possible outcome - it is very infrequently in life that you know the best outcomes, and the best ways to get there - there is no certainty in life, but this seems the best possible solution - if you pursue the things that give you meaning in life, even though they are difficult, then will have a greater chance of conquering the chaos and redeeming the reward - the phenomena of meaning manifests itself at the locale of optimal challenge - you need the optimisation of engagement and meaning - you pick your level of tooling (the layer of meaning hierarchy that you wish to challenge) that optimises your level to be engaged in it - as that will improve your journey of improving imperfections - becoming the best at becoming better

  • 2:06:00 - a little knowledge of death destroys you - full voluntary acceptance of death, is the cure

  • 2:07:00 - cain externalised responsibility of his life - you don’t take responsibility of the things you don’t accept, you only take responsibility of things you chose to accept - accept responsibility of the catastrophe of your life, you are strong enough to do that, once you do it, you only find that out once you do actually go and do it - you must be willing to lose your life in order to find it - buddha by accepting that life is suffering, he has transcended his suffering - don’t let what you are stop you from being what you could be - if you identify with what you are, then you are a tyrant - if you identify with chaos/what you could be, then you’re nihilistic - identify with the capacity to continuously transform what you are << you require the continuity of the narrative of your path to your future in order to have the correct foundations of how they tie together, otherwise you have just created anew without learning anything - a different game each time, without ever learning from the last >>

  • 2:10:00 - you want to find out where your limits are, you want to find out what parts of yourself are missing

  • 2:11:00 - you want to calibrate your game, such that you still want to play today, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, and 30 years from now - to take on the right amount of chaos in life, is to take on enough water/chaos to nourish you to bring order in the world

  • 2:12:00 - start by aiming at the star you can see, rather than the dim one behind it

  • 2:14:00 - it is better to be engaged in the solution to a complex problem, than to have no problem at all - suicide is having no problems anymore

  • 2:14:30 - sell responsibility, it gives people meaning, if meaning falls into tragedy, it was worth it over having nothing at all, as with tragedy you grew - this is the game of the seeker, it is the best game you can play - to adopt the responsibility of tragedy, and you’ll play the best game

my notes

  • On our personal lives possibly manifesting myths:

    • Every life is unique because we face problems in different details but there are commonalities / human universals.
      The archetype sometimes motivates you to something it wants; sub-personalities organise themselves.
      Maybe our lives manifest myths we are not aware of.

    • Does it mean that there is causality between myths and our lives?

    • Or is it “just” knowing of myths can orientate us in life and help us make a sense of the world?

    • Myths that reflect your personal experience can guide you in life, or even give you relief / comfort, e.g. Sisyphus

  • Blindness - novel by José Saramago:

  • On the necessity of having a best friend: in Queen Elizabeth’s great grandchild’s nursery, children are not allowed to have a best friend – this is harmful social engineering: you need a best friend to learn how to build relationships.

    • Our own experiences:

      • What kind of a role have friendships played for you?

      • Have your parents approved of your friends?

      • Is it OK for married people with kids not to have a best friend?

  • Questions

    • What precisely constitutes a belief system?

      • Why are people so inclined to even engage in conflict to maintain and expand their belief systems?

      • Is there an alternative to conflict with regards to belief systems?

      • Is there a way of judging the relative quality of belief systems?

  • How is it possible to understand the structures by which we orient ourselves in the world?

    • What’s the psychological significance, precisely, of those systems?

    • What roles do they play in psychological health, and, maybe also in social health?

    • Can you make a non-relativistic case when you assess an array of different value systems?

    • Is it possible to hierarchically organise value systems in a manner that’s justifiable? So that something can be reasonably considered in a superior or subordinate position?

  • The question with the Cold War was:

    • Was this just a battleground between two hypothetically equally appropriate belief systems, which could be morally relativistic.

    • Belief systems are arbitrary and combat between them is in some sense inevitable and even more to the point: there isn’t any other way around the discontinuity in some sense other than combat or subordination because there is no way of announcing a victor. There’s no such thing as victory if there’s no way of ranking belief systems.

  • Modernism: scientific method: strip the subjective from the phenomena; eradicates subjectivity

  • Difference between ‘is’ and ‘ought’: David Hume

    • value systems are independent from empirical …

    • can one of these systems be determined as wrong

  • Humans have inhabited / been obsessed by archetypal myths

  • Cybernetic systems: starting point => end point: story / map

    • make sense of the infinite numbers of data around you

    • mobile / targeted creature: what you aim for / your desires

    • elements of exploration and memory, but this interpretation is empty: because you are born with a structure

    • infant is far more formed than what we think

    • It’s not just mother / chaos there but also the father / order:

    • Because one needs constraints:

      • I have to organise myself so that I can play a game with you

      • if your map doesn’t take you there where you’d like to get it’s untrue or rather: not functional

    • Can belief systems be tested on validity?

      • If a society fails due to its belief system, then that system should be abandoned.
  • Food for thought for next saturday

    • **Mom Lecture 12, between 41:00 and 49:00: **JBP says if you have a really good map it will take you from point A to point B and it’ll always work. But what about not following a map, just taking risks / gambling and give things a chance / let things go?

    • **On the necessity of a best friend / friends in general: **

      • What role have friendships played for you so far?

      • Have your parents approved of your friends?

      • Is it OK for married people with kids not to have a best friend?