Maps of Meaning #9

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(Benjamin Lupton) #1

Discussion thread for 2017 Maps of Meaning - Lecture #9

study group discussions

Discussion as part of our Jordan B Peterson Study Group.


2017-04-22: Maps of Meaning #9
2018-02-10: Meaning #9
(Benjamin Lupton) #2

my notes

  • 0:00 - recap of jung, archetypes

  • 3:30 - how do you sell a political message to someone if it isn’t about something they consider important

  • 5:30 - roughly speaking, any coherent ordering principle is better than none - partly what has to be provided to individuals as they grow from adolescent to adult, is an ordering structure - before you are disciplined, you are not free, you are just chaotic

  • 7:30 - you must have an identity that can withstand the most profound doubts in your life with equivalent force

  • 8:30 - << part of Peterson’s goal is to protect your identity against ideological possession >>

  • 16:00 - strategies to win all the set of games

  • 18:00 - we figure things out by assimilating them into our actions, and then into knowledge - children can only do it this way - we have to figure out how we are being modified only in afterthought

  • 21:00 - brain size in chimps is correlated with group size

  • 22:30 - a play is only interesting if it it involves enough of you, and others, to be able to match what you know with what you don’t know - if it is just things we don’t know, there is no matching it to our own life, and can only be discarded - if it is only things we know, then it is also useless

  • 24:30 - an archetype is what is common between stories

  • 27:30 - in trepidation we seek nourishment

  • 28:50 - slide

  • 29:00 - the categorisation of entities depends on how their category relates to another

  • 33:30 - primary caregivers for children should not change, it destabilised the child

  • 33:30 - children learning games and processing new information - sleep is for when they have processed enough - once you have ascended your parents security you are an adult

  • 37:00 - there is no learning without the sacrifice of things you knew that were not true/valuable/optimised

  • 38:45 - girlfriend / mother

  • 39:00 - getting challenged - the only time we want challenge is once we know that not being challenged is worse - you want to be a master of revising yourself with each challenge so you can revise quicker and better - then unknown becomes your friend instead of your enemy - the only time you want something, is when you know the alternative is worse

  • 41:38 - slide

  • 42:20 - categories of unknown: latent and manifested

  • 43:00 - successful relationship positive-to-negative ratio is between 5:1 and 11:1, <5:1 is too hard, >11:1 is too easy (no challenge)

  • 45:00 - slide - betray your destiny, and see how long it is until you are drowning in a storm, as what is calling you to be your best (your destiny) is exactly what is pulling you forward to manifest yourself most fully in the world, if you run away from that, the boat will start rocking very quickly

  • 51:22 - slide - Jesus voluntarily accepted the role of life and death and rebirth - the dramatists get there before the artists who get there before the philosophers

  • 52:44 - slide of Venus - men use the image of female perfection to motivate themselves, and to try and make themselves worthy

  • 57:00 - slide

  • 1:00:30 - does your category have a functional representation?

  • 1:01:00 - slide << teenagers love thrills (horror movies, adventure rides, risky escapades) because they can familiarise themselves with the unknown while they still have adult backup — too early, too much damage, too late, no backup

  • 1:02:00 - fire is magical to us as we are the only species that had the significance to master it - Lucy scene - in the face of horror and death, you make sacrifices, to transform the destructive nature into something that you need

  • 1:05:35 - slide

  • 1:07:50 - slide

  • 1:08:30 - if you have a problem with all women, or you have a problem with all men, then you are the one with the problem, as they are telling you what is wrong with you and you are not listening

  • 1:11:00 - slide

    • << I have a lot to say on this one >>
  • 1:11:30 - << what did he say? Pluti? >>

  • 1:13:00 -** slide - women vs men in society, obedience, moving ahead**

  • 1:20:00 - it’s not just a position of power, it is also a position of overwhelming responsibility - feminists/marxists/socialists/communists want all the power, and zero responsibility << is this a feminine trait? >>

  • 1:21:00 - the older you get, the more important family is - the utility of your career peaks at around 35 - you need family around 50 and especially at 80 - the birth control pill / female contraceptive allowed females to compete in the same areas as men - well done feminism - it is a very rare woman who doesn’t have a primary desire in their 30s to have children, it is a woman with severe issues who doesn’t

  • 1:29:30 - when you go out into the unknown, arm yourself and pay attention - was also a slide around here

  • 1:31:40 - slide

  • 1:32:00 - societies and civilisation

  • 1:35:50 - universities now just create politically possessed idiots

  • 1:36:00 - bad father relationships

  • 1:38:00 - 2 slides

  • 1:39:00 - “I’ll never let anything happen to you” NO, make people strong so things can happen to them

  • 1:40:00 - rights vs responsibility, it is so demeaning that you have to be protected with rights, there is a responsibility gap in the market, conservatives can sell responsibility to people, which gives them meaning, and wins the markets - the more responsibility the more GLORY, do something difficult and heroic and break out of your bonds

  • 1:42:14 - slide, son devouring the father

  • 1:42:30 - female fantasies, pirate someone willing to break rules, peter pan

  • 1:45:30 - slide, Moses getting the rules

  • 1:46:00 - courage

  • 1:49:00 - you fear things you respect - you destroy things you are disgusted by - hitler was great at using these two

  • 1:50:00 - diversity - because we don’t know which direction is the right one, following someone in one direction will eventually lead you off a cliff

  • 1:51:00 - order and disgust

  • 1:52:00 - stalin - -

  • 1:53:00 - rector, journalists, politics, represent what is going on

  • 1:56:00 - slides

  • 1:58:00 - goal of life

  • 1:59:10 - slide

  • 2:00:00 - flow - the religious aspects of ceremony/flow has been stripped away through careless criticism - people hunger for flow more deeply than anything else

  • 2:03:00 - conscientiousness and delaying of gratification isn’t there, IQ is there - delay gratification is a sacrifice - you can only delay gratification is your societal structure is stable, as delaying gratification depends on stability in order to get your reward, this is why when the future becomes uncertain, people become stop delaying gratification

  • 2:07:00 - as memes become successful, they eventually manifest themselves in genes

  • 2:10:00 - are you as educated as you are intelligent - if there is a mismatch, that is a pathology

  • 2:11:00 - if you are sick, you do everything you can, with all at your disposal, to get better - you leave your pride behind if you have to - it is very different to have a terrible life and to have depression

  • 2:12:00 - can the sense of meaning be hijacked (yes sub-personalities) - video games do this, but hopefully in a cooperative conscious way, thus need balance -** the question is how do you stop yourself from falling prey to a pathological sense of meaning, and one of the answers to that is to not lie - if you pathologise your psyche, then your internal structure is warped and no longer provides an accurate interpretation of reality - it is very hard to speak the truth, as the truth is a shapeshifter, but we do know how not to lie - if you are going to rely on your sense of meaning, make sure you do not pollute the mechanism - confession is to identify the leaks before they get worse**

(Barbara Békési) #3

my notes

  • Thoughts on “Jordan Peterson Steps In It (MGTOW)” – a critique about Peterson’s claims on Men Going Their Own Way


    • There’s really some exaggeration and apparently statistically unproven claims made by JBP during his lecture but …

    • “Women tell you what’s wrong with you.”

      • It’s not individual women’s words in specific situations that JBP thinks should be considered as truth and be guided by. Both men and women should listen to the opposite sex in general have to say and watch what they do, who they choose etc.
    • As opposed to JBP and MRA (men’s rights activism) MGTOW doesn’t seem to be that interested in finding a solution – if individual men avoid starting a family, it won’t prevent the disadvantages men outside the MGTOW movement suffer during a divorce.

    • After feminism has already fulfilled its purpose, i.e. given women equal rights in voting, education, etc.) and has clearly gone too far in the past years (with 3rd and 4th wave and Social Justice), we need a movement / an attitude that makes men and women agree on things – not sheer counter-feminism.

  • Ideal man according to women:

    • Google findings about erotic/pornographic literature: vampire, werewolf, pirate, billionaire, surgeon

    • JBP: women don’t like harmless but dangerous men who can be civilized

    • danger is rather attractive for fantasies

    • taming is more attractive for the realistic aspect – kind of character development

    • Who could the frog/toad represent in tales that is to be kissed or taken into bed by the Princess and turns into a Prince. Could it be

      • someone who is wild and uncivilized who is waiting for a woman to be tamed?

      • an ugly guy who can jump loops if he tries hard enough and manages to please the woman?

    • men’s sense of humour appreciated by women:

      • a predominantly masculine trait (women don’t usually crack jokes as a pastime among each other)

      • wittiness: an indicator of intelligence (that can show that the man is higher in that hierarchy)

      • helps women to unwind

    • men are better at discriminating (also important in management roles)

    • women tend to believe everything

    • What makes a man marriageable?

    • Ideal woman according to men:

      • Beautiful

      • able to leave the man alone J

      • not domineering