Personality Lecture #22

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(Benjamin Lupton) #1

Discussion thread for Personality and Its Transformations - Lecture #22

study group discussion

Discussion as part of our Jordan B Peterson Study Group.

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2017-11-18: Personality #22
(Benjamin Lupton) #2

my notes

  • 0:00 - don’t sacrifice who you could be, for who you are - you must sacrifice who you are for who you could be - when provided the option of staying stuck, that is the same, or transforming into something better, it is better to transform

    • You are the thing that transforms who you are

    • You should put the thing that becomes at a higher place than the thing that is

      • << seems justification for why we treat children better than adults, women better than men, and humans better than animals, and animals better than plants >>
    • Phoenix - do you want to be reborn? not as accurate as, do you want to burst into flames? Let the nonsense of this predicament burn away.

      • You can say, “I don’t know what to leave behind” - but that is a lie, you know, all you have to do is ask yourself, you’ll immediately be able to come up with a list of a hundred stupid things you are doing that you should stop doing
  • 2:00 - personality is what you are as a human being, and as an individual, and also what you can become

    • Crucial question of clinical psychology - who can the patient become?

      • The psychologist doesn’t know what will get the patient out of bed in the morning, only the patient knows that

        • Psychologist only helps patient:

          • Specify the goal

          • Specify the transformation process

          • Help patient understand they will be bad at the transformation, but it doesn’t matter, if you persist on something that you want to get out of bed for, you can get out of bed, you can get better with each attempt, and you eventually win

            • Compared with a life of not wanting to get out of bed, or a life of attempting and quitting, or a life of failing/accomplishing aimlessly/meaninglessly
  • 3:52 - slide - What is and what should be: Domains

    • Science:

      • What is it, that is the world?
    • Morality:

      • How are we, in the world?

      • How should we be?

        • What is good?

        • What is health, and mental health?

    • Science and Morality: Psychology:

      • How is it that we may best obtain “what is the good”?
  • 5:00 - scientific method removes value from its descriptions

    • Value propositions are in the domain of the subjective, which is what science leaves out for the objective

    • Determining - how you should be, do, and act - from facts, is flawed, as the facts don’t have the value structure, and there is an infinite amount of facts

      • The facts do not tell you what to do with the facts

        • << this is why I have come to value Fox news - they don’t just tell you the facts, they also tell you how to interpret the facts based on a shared collective value system - youtube commentary/reaction videos are much the same >>
      • You need direction, especially as direction is what causes positive emotion, and especially as positive emotion is what makes you move, and positive emotion defends against terror and pain, so if you want movement, then you need direction, and if you want direction, you need a value structure

        • You could say, what value structure?

          • Post modernists are wrong, as

            • All value structures are shared, as life is a shared experience with other people, we are stuck with each other, so need a shared value system

              • << call for nationalism? Also seems why Peterson sees there as a modern call to Christian values, as such, a christian identity, which ironically, is what Spencer would argue, is a white identity >>
            • So despite there being an infinite amount of ways of interpreting the world, we must select from the limited amount of interpretations that actually are compatible with each other, in functional society

            • Piagetian game proposition

              • If you want to be a popular person of the playground, you gotta play games that others want to play
            • Moral judgements emerge from consensus, which is a bounded domain

              • << Is this why the left virtue signals? They find consensus in delegating the moral agency/responsibility/independence to the collective narrative - I can trust you, if you are also an operative of the narrative, as you are no longer an individual, and individuals are wildcards that are not to be trusted, as who knows what an individual could think! They could even thing hateful hurtful things by our narrative’s standards! Blasphemy! Down with the individual! And individual thought! Only allowed approved speech and notions! Despite the fact, that they cannot control people’s mind — although, Orwell and Huxley new this, Orwell - control their minds by controlling their language’s expressiveness, as language controls thought - Huxley - control their minds by controlling their technology, as technology controls culture — although, perhaps this is why the Leftists are crusading in the realm of Information Technology - if we control technology, we control culture, and control the world’s minds - this is certainly Google’s driver >>

              • Bounded by the same place, and the same time

                • This necessitates an iterative game, that hopefully doesn’t spiral downwards, that we both don’t object to, as otherwise it doesn’t work, as people will either:

                  • Walk away and play another game

                  • Or it disintegrates catastrophically

            • Not only do two people need to get along, but they need to get along with a value system, that doesn’t cause the world to reject them - pretty much every single thing objects to you - nature wishes to kill you - hunger/sleep/hygiene/civility wishes to kill/distract you

              • 9:00 - William James figured out the pragmatist perspective to value systems (the only genuine brand of American philosophy) - how do you decide if something is true, you can’t as an individual because you don’t know anything, but you can lay out a mode of interpretation with an end point, run it, and see if it gets you where you want to get

                • << how is this not scientific/objective, this is exactly the scientific method - perhaps it is in, that the determination of the experiment, requires subjectivity >>

                • You can also use this to figure out if your value system, interpretative framework, suppositions, are correct

                  • << this is Ayn Rand’s “recheck your suppositions” trope >>
  • 11:30 - slide - Peterson’s Point A to Point B slide

    • Self-propagation

      • Affirmative desire

      • Sexual desire

    • Point A to Point B

      • A planned sequence of behaviour

      • A planned sequence of behaviour

      • A planned sequence of behaviour

    • Self-maintenance

      • Thermoregulation

      • Thirst

      • Hunger

      • Elimination

  • 11:30 - you can also regard yourself in some sense, as a “loose self-regulated society”, which is true psychoanalytically, as you are a collection of subpersonalities, subroutines

    • Between birth and 4 years old - you have to turn yourself into a unity - after that, you need to bring yourself into unity with the outer world - after that unity, needs to function within the constraints of the natural world

    • That structure is hierarchical, as some things must be more important than others, as otherwise you cannot act

      • That hierarchy is there to exclude and oppress, but also to focus and act

      • As you are stuck with the need for a value structure, the question is how to constitute it

        • To do that, you must be aware of its constraints

          • << perhaps peterson’s focus on the constraints of IQ, to not delude us >>

          • Too lonesome could be that your value structure is too narcissistic

    • Your value system becomes insufficient when it fails to propagate itself across time

      • << would a cognitive dissonance alarm, that is then ignored, and thus resolves itself, still pass? Despite the temporary imbalance >>
    • 16:00 - the child is not just a social construct, as if their environment (their social construct) is not suitable, then they die - that is devoid of touch, play, etc

      • Experiment done with romanian orphans back in the 90s
  • 16:55 - slide - Peterson’s What is to What should be slide

    • What IS to What SHOULD BE

      • How we should act

      • How we should act

      • How we should act

    • Capitalise on social groups

    • Maintain order

    • Narration:

      • This seems dominated by your personality biological systems

        • Extraversion dominated by dopaminergic systems

        • Neuroticism dominated by anxiety/fear systems

        • Agreeable dominated by maternal/care systems

      • This however, personality, still only governs about 10% of social systems

  • 18:15 - slide - Peterson’s value system hierarchy slide

    • What IS to What SHOULD BE, for each layer of of the value system, lower abstractions to higher order abstractions, made up of micro routines

    • Good Person

      • Good Parent

        • Good Job

        • Family Care

          • Complete mea

            • Cut corn

            • Set table

            • Do dishes

          • Play with baby

            • Peek

            • Tickle

            • Clean

    • Narration:

      • Clean room, is actually a value system, made up of learned micro routines

        • Micro routine: put teddy in this specific place
      • Sometimes psychotherapy is:

        • Waking up someone dormant - they have the micro routines

        • Injecting the micro routines into someone who has been neglected

          • Parents never paid attention, or punished them anytime they did something good

        • Generally treatment is getting people to practice the opposite ends of their personality temperaments

          • If a disagreeable person is depressed, get them to do nice things for other people

          • If an agreeable person is depressed, practice doing things for yourself, and being tough minded

          • If extroverted, spend some time reflecting alone

          • If low in openness, read a book outside your usual realm of interest

          • If high in conscientious, then learn to relax

          • Hyper-orderly, get a dog

          • Don’t move the mean, but extend the realm of deviation, so they have more competency

  • 21:00 - what should be at the top of the hierarchy, clinicians would say the self-actualised person

    • << what if their self-actualisation, is not good for society? And where environment no longer punishes them for it - via death, war, plagues, poverty, etc - are we doomed to societal collapse when living standards increase? Or is informed/voluntary population control of liberalism required - voluntary human extinction project, contraceptives, adoption over birth >>

    • If it devolves, you end up with nihilism, which then ends up with (predicted by Nietzsche and the existentialists)

      • Desire for someone (the tyrant) to tell you what to do

        • << seems reference to authoritarian systems, and ISIS requirement >>
      • Or nihilistic chaos

        • << seems reference to existential against, non-binary genders, suicide >>
      • << interesting relationship to Absurdism>>

  • 23:18 - slide - Peterson’s Unbearable Present to Ideal Future

    • What IS (the unbearable present) to What SHOULD BE (the ideal future)

      • A planned sequence of behaviour, that results in

        • Predicted Outcome => Promise => Hope/Pleasure

          • Continues Sequence to the Ideal Future
        • Unpredicated Outcome => Threat (promise) => Anxiety (hope)

          • Start again by Generate/Choose New Sequence to get you to the Ideal Future
  • 23:23 - slide - Peterson’s value system hierarchy slide

  • 24:00 - Freudian slips often expose dragons that need disentangling due to their emotional identity - anything that made you upset, is the same as everything else that has made you upset - they are all dragons that become stronger - ask someone about a freudian slip, via free association, in they will wander around it exhaustively

  • 27:00 - what is behind the game you are playing - everything that you are ignoring (outside your awareness) - always

    • Let’s say you are in a class, and you get a bad grade - what is manifesting itself so that you get a bad grade? Why did you get the bad grade? - a bad grade is a piece of paper, but your limbic system sees it as a dragon
  • 28:00 - video games are the hypothetical dragon over the real dragon

  • 29:00 - resentment, acting out a path that objects to you

    • 32:00 - error messages contain within them the implicit world

    • 32:00 - 2% efficiency

    • 33:00 - what do you do with messages of error

      • What not to do

        • I am a bad person, I might as well jump of a bridge

          • Bad as; everytime you learn something you will make mistakes - if every time you make a mistake you jump off a bridge, that’s not useful
      • As such

        • When you make a mistake, you don’t get to beat yourself with a club - beating yourself up is a bad strategy, a super active super-ego, or just you, because you are disagreeable and neurotic and hyper conscientious

          • << ties in with Wikipedia’s article on self-forgiveness being difficult for certain personalities >>
  • 34:00 - slide of Peterson’s

    • Point A to Point B (anything outside of point a and point b, is irrelevant ground)

      • A planned sequence of behaviour

        • OBJECT

          • Tool

            • Positive Affect

              • Continue Sequence
          • Obstacle

            • Negative Affect

              • Create New Sequence
  • 34:30 - When something objects, the question is, what does that mean?

    • It is which part of the structure at [18:15 - slide - Peterson’s value system hierarchy slide] needs attention, which needs to be taken apart

      • Start with a little piece, see it fixes the problem, if it doesn’t, only then move to a larger piece

      • Assume you are the least amount of reprehensible and ignorant as possible

      • Set goals that you can think you can accomplish

      • Each pursuit of goal, may arise new problems, those problems are likely different than the problems you are trying to address, they are likely just inexperience in a new better mode of being

      • You don’t want to take yourself apart any more than is absolutely necessary

      • When a child does something not right - do minimal necessary intervention to prevent it from occurring in the future

        • << this is definitely not true in video games and movies - you let the bad guy or good guy flee over killing them, they will definitely come back and beat you next time - kill/eradicate the competition at every chance you get - use the appropriate weapon for the level of threat >>
      • With partners - what is the minimal thing you can request that will satisfy you? The minimal that you can accept? Specify it precisely and narrowly, with an escape route

        • If you want them cringing in a corner, then get that out of you, under control

        • << what does peterson mean by escape route? - as escape route for the motivations that maintains their dignity >>

      • Watch the people around you like a hawk

        • Whenever they do something that is good - you TELL them - that is wisdom man - you will get so far with that you will not believe it

          • Most people have become so cynical that any good they do is a rare attempt, so you squash or not notice that, they will return to their shell to make that attempt rarer

          • If you tell people the good that they are doing - they will be incentivised to keep doing it - and as well, to do more good things

          • If you like someone that you want in your life - you must

            • Notice

            • Tell them

          • You probably don’t want to follow this advice, as you probably want to dominate others, and you don’t want them thriving, as then you will have competition - you must forego this pleasure if you want the other person to develop

            • << is getting this out in video games, so you can be positive in real life, effective? >>
          • 40:30 - yeah you are stuck with them, it’s good in that you settled, and you have one eye open - if you elevated your partner, you may not feel so resentful to them, and you may not be looking for an affair

            • Do you really wish to see them grow? They may outshine you if you did?

            • Or do you wish to see them tremble, cower, and falter?

          • This is also rough on kids, as parents can limit their kids so the parents do not feel inferior

  • 41:00 - if life is a rat nest of misery, then why not devote yourself to reducing the misery to the minimal necessary amount

    • << of society? Or of yourself? >>

    • Move from self-imposed misery, to only the inescapable misery

      • If you do this, then life may become just a tragedy, instead of hell
  • 43:00 - tragic circumstances bring out people’s dragons, as stress is high, and all the things people haven’t dealt with, rise to the top, as they no longer have the nergy to repress the dragons

  • 45:00 - one’s plan, is their identity, the stick of wood they hold onto that is keeping them afloat in the ocean - when something that confronts you plan arises, be it a wave (or even someone trying to rescue you), an ideologue cannot let go of their plan, and they sink with it << staying in an abusive relationship, is an ideologue of a successful relationship >> - do not have your identity as the plan, have your identity as the thing that creates plans, that confronts the obstacles with plans, and obstacles are not just obstacles but opportunity itself - it is possible the thing objecting to you, is trying to help you formulate an even better plan, is that really a problem or an opportunity - this is really hard abstraction to apply to tragedies, but it is possible

    • It is pretty miserable to be digging for gold near someone’s grave - but if they really loved you, then that is what they want you to do - be in the room and be helpful, rather the person who’s world is collapsing - be the useful person at the funeral - be the person who’s shoulder on which people cry - be reliable - be someone who can sustain a major loss without collapsing - and you gotta be a monster to do that

      • Roses and sunshine is pablum for fools

      • I couldn’t live without them in my life - do you really want to curse someone with that kind of love - get away from people like that, run - the oedipal mother - the witch in the hansel and gretel story - the devouring force of love

        • << this really hits home for me >>
      • 50:00 - the death of your mother doesn’t matter to you? What type of monster are you? Sometimes being a monster is the right thing

        • That’s a rough thing to learn, but it is a necessary thing to learn
  • 51:00 - if by the time you are 30, if what your parents think of you is more important than what your peers think of you, then you are confused, as by mid 20s, you parents are no longer your parents, they are now just peers, and you have confused your parents with god and you with a child

    • << seems of a force of religion for helping the practitioners through this transition of who is the parent, who is the child - in The Shack - there was many things, that portrayed the adults as children - certain mannerisms - I figured that was mistakes, but it could have been intentional >>
  • 52:35 - slide of Peterson’s

    • Point A to Point B

      • Planned sequence of behaviour

      • ANOMALY - must be classified within determinate world

        • Positive Affect

          • HOPE

            • Interest

            • Exhilaration

            • Curiosity

            • Confidence

        • Negative Affect

          • ANXIETY

            • Fear

            • Hurt

            • Anger

            • Guilt

            • Shame

      • Affordance or Irrelevant: Continue Sequence

      • Obstacle or Relevant: Create New Sequence

  • 52:00 - the things that can disrupt your plan is a larger space than << peterson went on a tangent and didn’t answer >>

    • Be the friend of the thing that disrupts your plan, as you become a positive force of disruption

      • << like a martial artist using the force asserted towards them, against their enemy >>
  • 53:40 - slide of Peterson’s

    • Order and Chaos Constitute the Stage

      • YANG

        • Order

        • Masculinity

        • Day

        • The Known

        • Authoritarianism

        • Fascism

      • YIN

        • Chaos

        • Femininity

        • Night

        • The Unknown

        • Decadence

        • Nihilism

    • Narration

      • Be in the middle - have a bit of both as your weapons - against the force of the other

        • That place is the maximally meaningful place - you drift in an out of it in your life - in bad times, you are hardly there - but even in a 2 week period, you occasionally visit there - practice getting there, and sustaining your position there - it is a meta place, you can be there anytime, anywhere - your nervous/underlying systems is always trying to get you there

          • << the dragon ball z integration of the shadow >>
  • 55:20 - slide of Peterson’s

    • The earlier slide, where Point B is unattainable

    • DESCENT INTO CHAOS

      • WITH ADDITION OF

        • Motivational Conflict

        • Latent Environmental Information

      • TO THE DIRECTION OF

        • Point B becomes accessible again
  • 55:50 - PTSD need to relearn the description of good and evil

  • 56:30 - Jungian incorporation of the shadow is no bloody joke - the only thing a monster won’t mess with, is another monster

    • << this is completely true with bullies in school - they are predators that prey on the vulnerable and weak - show you are strong and have an integrated monster, and the predatory uncontrolled monster runs like a smaller dog with its tail between its legs >>

    • You must make the choice between - pathetic monster - or a monster with power

      • << ties in with point at 45:00 - those who die without their love by their side, are pathetic monsters >>

      • There IS NO non-monster alternative - you must either be WEAK or STRONG - not a WEAK monster or a STRONG monster - but a WEAK person or a STRONG person - the latter has an integrated monster, so they retain their humanity

  • 57:15 - slide of some fish and some dude - apparently Jona

  • 58:30 - slide of horse and man killing a dragon outside a city

    • Do you want to be safe? You are not a city - you must cope with danger - you are the human - pick if you want to be the knight having an adventure conquering dragons and protecting the kingdoms that assist him - or the weak individual cowering from danger to get raped by the invading army - or do you wish to be the raping invading army, and live at threat of traitors - or rather, which sacrifices of happiness can you convince yourself of to pursue which future

    • Dostrovsky said if all you had to do was to eat cake, you would burn the whole system to the ground, as you don’t want safety

      • << this is a recurrent theme in Dragon Ball Z with Goku - he always unleashes danger so he can grow and test himself >>
  • 60:00 - agoraphobia treatment is making them braver - you don’t get to be safe ever again - being stronger is a better bargain than being safer

  • 60:30 - slide of snakes

    • An evolutionary arms race between early snakes and mammals triggered the development of improved vision and large brains in primates

    • The idea proposed by Lynne Isbell, anthropologist

  • 1:01:00 - slide of Saint George of Michael - peter pan crocodile and the clock - medusa beheaded

    • Video games with the rest of the lost boys
  • 1:02:00 - modification of of 55:20 slide with incorporation of

    • Reintegration

    • Ascent

    • Point C to Point D

  • 1:02:00 - decide to be the person who makes the journey voluntarily, for as long as it takes, this is an eternal battle - it is strength for you, and the people around you, and strength for everything, for order

    • The existential question - do you want things ordered properly and thrive - if YES, you must give up your hatred of being, your martyrdom, and all of that, as those will corrupt you, and you will not want the best - to want the best, you must be without hatred and resentment and jealously and vice and sin

      • Cain and abel story - cutting off good at the knees if I can’t be better
  • 1:04:00 - many different slides - the constituent elements of the world - golden buddha - hinduism - christianity - scandinavian world tree

  • 1:07:00 - you got something others need

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